Today I visited Repspace as I often do when I get home from work, and I found myself ranting about ASEA salt water. After I took a chill pill and relaxed, I began to remember a few things that other posters have share din other threads, and a few things popped into my mind. One of them, was Watchdog try to remind us all what the definition of a scam is. This was really helpful information for many of us, because without it, its pretty easy to just go off on a tirade about something being a "scam" without really explaining why, or defining just what that is.

Another point was made more recently by Wallace, in a debate about the legitimacy of Envirotabs, and how Angel, another forum poster didn't seem to present an argument based on a more widely accepted variation of "facts" or proof. I got so irritated about the ASEA thread because I found much of what was online to be repetitious marketing blogs deigned to sound professional. I found "doctors" that looked like doctors, but didn't REALLY sound like doctors. That is to say that if you've had 10 years of med school, you should be able to type me out of the water and not make grammatical mistakes that I would make with my community college degree.

So at the core of all of this is a major question that I have begun wondering and want to ask all members of this forum. What constitutes truth? What kind of proof should we have before we can accept the claims made my any mlm company or any rep? Should it be 100% empirical like Wallace says? Should company web sites be the last place we go in an attempt at verifying anything? After all, I'd like to think that the last person you would go to in order to ask about the integrity of a politician is the politician him or herself, right?

I have noticed something that has really started to bother me about today's world, and that is that too many people are believing too many things without any kind of logical rationality behind it. Its the reason why no one agrees what the healthiest foods are, whether sunlight is good or bad for your skin, good fat vs bad fat. Its as if all common sense has gone out the window because we are all so starved of optimism that we will believe anything that promises us something great.

So, Wallace, Watchdog, Jango, Angel, Travis, Jon, Beth, Ivette, ANYONE...

Can you give me your idea of what criteria a product or company should meet before its claims should be accepted? I'm not talking about trying it yourself. I mean something more procedural that we could all implement as a team.

A couple of thoughts,

First, GREAT question.  Honestly, I want to think about it and get back with you.  Society-wide, I believe it might just be optimism and holding out hope for that 'silver bullet'.  MLM-wise, it's a poor reflection on the industry that too many companies with questionable products but great marketing and placement can color the opinion of everyone else and thus ruin it for honest, legitimate companies choosing Network Marketing as the best distribution model.

Second, I don't hold mis-spellings against anyone online, even someone who's been through pre-med.  There's a world of difference between my typing something 'officially' and pounding out a quick forum response.  I admit, I spent about, let's see.... ZERO time proofreading my posts.

That being said, there's also a distinction to be made between a legitimate mis-spelling and uneducated, poor grammar. "yo', so like I LOVE my comp'ny cuz it da' bestest ever! I envisualize my sucksess every day!"

(and actually, I LOVE the word 'envisualize' and try to use it every day.  Patent-Pending, as it were! :))

Finally, did you *actually* list me in the esteemed company of Wallace, Watchdog, etc.?! Like, so AWESOME, ya' know?!

Since the day his children were born, they have been under chiropractic care. Dr. Dooley successfully includes the special training he received in pediatric chiropractic techniques to ensure your children grow up as healthily as possible. After all, it is much easier to prevent problems then it is to fix them.

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Chiropractor in Modesto
Modesto Chiropractor

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Since the day his children were born, they have been under chiropractic care. Dr. Dooley successfully includes the special training he received in pediatric chiropractic techniques to ensure your children grow up as healthily as possible. After all, it is much easier to prevent problems then it is to fix them.

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Chiropractor in Modesto
Modesto Chiropractor

At least the picture for this spammer is easy on the eyes.

Excellent question indeed, and a great reply Jon.

I can see where you're coming from about the misspellings. I don't think he's saying that we aren't all human and spell things wrong from time to time, just that there are a few small,  telltale signs that someone who claims to be a doctor might not be. Lets face it, the entire civilized world is run on the success of appearance. Its how leaders are elected, products are sold, first impressions are made, jobs are landed, art is sold, pop/hip hop "artists" are manufactured, and the sole reason we fix ourselves up before going out.

If you can market a product and control every avenue of its marketing, you have an entire percentage of the population that will definitely believe the things you suggest. You don't even have to lie, just show a guy named "Bill" with a stethoscope saying how wonderful a product is, and 700 million Americans will feel at ease and be ok with the product, even more so if a celebrity endorses it, even if its a vitamin to reverse the effects of Trioxin (That's the name of the chemical that turned people into zombies in Return of the Living Dead.).

Yes, It pains me to have made that last comment even with an exaggerated figure because I realize I am insulting the intelligence of a large percentage of my country, but it sort of does reflect the truth don't you think? Standards for what constitutes "fact" have actually always been at an all time low. Our lack of real fact checking is what lead us into Vietnam, Iraq, and all kinds of other miseries. Americans in particular almost have a love of gimmicks.

Selling "ice to Eskimos" as they say has actually become something of a virtue to entrepreneurs, equating to a "high five" or a badge of efficiency between them. Our educational system doesn't help either, as that has been rapidly swirling in the toilet bowl for over 30 years or so, and its in a wonderful education that you learn how to think critically, apply references, fact check, and call most marketing for what it is; lying, exaggerating, and stealing via the lack of better judgement of your target demographic.

Note that I said most marketing, not all marketing.

I think as far as mlm proof goes, the only backbone we have left to rely on would maybe be Independent studies done by 3rd parties. It would definitely help if the government had a branch that specializes in verifying the safety and effectiveness of virtually all claims made by companies. You might think we have the EPA, and FDA for things like that, but most products never go through those branches because they have little labels on them protecting the crooks from having to account for anything. I suppose legitimate proof will be valid when; instead of those little labels saying "this product is not a cure for bla bla, and does not promise to be an effective treatment for bla bla" you have labels that say; 100% guaranteed or your money back, no questions asked, no shipping charges. While also passing all independent tests, none of which are run by the company in question, or its affiliates.

Before I shut up and end this book I have written (sorry,  I would like to ask you why you think the government has never really cracked down on companies that may not be blatant scams, but do sell products that fail to meet expectations.... The answer is because they want you to spend, plain and simple. So long as your product is not harming anyone, and doesn't clash with their own vested interests, mild scams are basically the American way.

why is it you guys have an apparently unlimited amount of time to write these amazing diatribes, so that I can't reasonably respond? ;)

That is true, but I can't help but notice a sort of, lethargic, heroine daze. I'm only making fun of the photo, not the poor random girl who has no idea her photo was taken by a spybot, programmer thingie.

lol, I can't speak for Rick, but I work from home, and aside from lifting, going out with the fam or errands I am on the computer wayyyyyy too much. I also love to write. That's not to say that I'm any good at it, but basically I like to dump whatever is on my brain. Rick rants more than I do (in my opinion), but being a fellow ranter, we sort of feed off one another lol.

Besides Jon, you are far more neutral and fair about a lot of this stuff than I am. Your replies may sometimes be shorter, but at least you don't alienate one side or the other or make an ass of yourself. Plus, your posts aren't depressing, sometimes political, offensive, and completely off topic at certain points. You are probably the better kind of animal for this farm, especially because you have experience with all of it.

Look how ridiculous my life is, I write all kinds of crap, even reviews and profiles, and have never touched an mlm business in my life lol. I think not participating in any of them, and yet having a unhealthy interest in the entire industry is kind of warped.

Greetings to everyone!

I think this is a very good question, and I would like to say that I feel science is truly the best basis. Scientific method and objective analysis from the proper sources would be best. In my experience there are rules to follow. I have come to rely on common sense for my nutrition, to eat well, whole and natural food. I have come to rely on medical doctors for those times that I can't fix an ailment myself, instead of bracelets, specialty waters and jungle fruits. I save my money in a bank, not in mysterious vaults, coin collections, or special credit points.To avoid such things is to avoid many mlm companies, and those are the only ones that can use words against the less educated and make them believe things that science and common sense says are not so. I hope I am clear in my meaning, please reply and say if not. The only mlm companies outside of this circle sell products that may sometimes not be so great, but are visible, and are real. Software, soaps, cooking items to make kitchens better, wick less candles, and so much other products that deserve more attention.

Much love to everyone.

wow WB dude. I haven't seen you in a long time J.

Nice replies guys. I have time like Wallace does, but I work for two months straight at a time, then I sit around for a week. Love my job, but I have the desire to get a little something going, I've been coming here because I'm too chicken to pick a product I like, and the more I talk about the more I learn. If I feel like I can make a more informed choice I will, but lately I've been getting pissed at the reasoning behind so many of these reps. I want to make some noise and start a business, but I have NO interest whatsoever in making money on a gimmick. I drink so much coffee it aint even right, so I talk alot.

Wallace - interesting you bring this up.  I was talking with someone about Javita last night and brought you up (in a positive way).  A gentleman who's on MLM forums, who I believe could be a superstar, but he's not in any Network Marketing business!

Rickdowns - Let me get this straight.... 1. you want to 'make some noise and start a business', 2. you don't want a gimmick, and 3. you drink a lot of coffee.

hummmm.  You DO know I'm a CoffeeMLM rep, right?! :)  Notice I send free samples?

hah, that you for kindly thinking of me sir, I just don't think I have the kind of mentality that would be suitable to drive an mlm plan. I do have an outgoing streak but its lives in some pretty specific areas. The taste is here for sure, I'd be dishonest if I denied that. Simple things in life really make me happy, and morning or mid afternoon coffee is one of them. Javita would be a pretty solid product I could endorse, but I seriously have lost touch with all of my friends, and working at home cuts it down even further. I realize that these days people probably do better online anyway, but I have a PC repair business on the side, (I'm being generous when I call it a business) that gives me maybe 15-20 jobs a year, even with cheap fees. I just started a website, twitter and blog to try to promote it.

There is an mlm called FantaZ that I was a hair away from considering as well. I'm not sure how they're doing these days but that was the closest I ever came to actually jumping in. I'll tell you what though, if I thought I could move Javita on the side without too much time vested I'd do it, but that sort of illustrates why I'm not the best candidate for it. Half-assed effort yields half-assed results. Now Rick, that's a guy I can see selling a product. Hell if a potential lead said no, I could see him going on a 25 minute rant leaving the person joining just to calm the situation down lol.

:P

Don't be so hard on yourself.  You don't have to necessarily be 'outgoing' - success isn't determined by extroversion. There are hundreds of ways to build an MLM business - you just have to pick those that work with your life and personality and focus.  It also gives an exceptional motivatino to work on your personal growth.

Working from home most times isn't a disadvantage, when you consider many really successful people have done it via online methods.  Build a blog, use article marketing and some basic seo and you can succeed.  You go to the grocery store or target or walmart, right?  Hang flyers.  Drop cards (look like folded $100 bills).  Free classifieds, or pay for cheap classifieds. 

MLM isn't about those friends you've kept in touch with or what family lives close.  I personally do not recommend people try that - it's the quick way to rejection and ridicule.

I don't know your strengths or what you do exactly - but you've got the interest.  My thought? Find a product you don't find scammy and enjoy and dive in!  The guy who wrote "Conversations with Millionaires" once said "It doesn't matter if you get it right, just get it going".

Heck, consider the fact you're on MLM boards posting all the time.  Don't think you can market an MLM?  Just add a .sig to your posts and viola!, you're advertising your new biz!

Always a colorful topic when you fellas are talking.

Mlm proof...hmm

1. Try to go easy on these products you guys have so much fun picking on, because even mainstream products rely on hype for good sales. I know you may not want to hear it, and I certainly don't, but a product only has to function in order to be considered effective. A diet pill can help you lose 1 pound a month, and that is pretty worthless overall, but so long as it can do it, it can be hyped and sold.That constitutes MLM proof I think.

2. Both products and people are all very different. I've seen you guys arguing to the bloody end over gas pills, and I can understand to some extent, but you realize that without an engineering degree, or even an automotive degree you can't possibly determine whether a product really works without trying it. If gas tablets so much as save an extra gallon, no matter how shabby that may be, it works. That's just how business works. In fact its kind of like those psychic shows where some weirdo is a conversation with you dead uncle Benny. Just one out of three guesses and a a sense of crediblity develops.

3. Real proof according to you guys should be some popular mechanics article explaining why something works or doesn't, but no one is really looking at this stuff. Its not big enough a deal, you know? You would have to invest the money yourself into an independent study that meets every possible piece of criteria before being universally accepted, or you could just have a celebrity endorse it! That would probably be more effective, at least here in the states.

4. It all comes down to you. If you squawk loud enough to complain or fight to the bloody death in your struggle to prove it doesn't work. Save some money and by enough of it to prove your point. You care enough to argue over the internet, then buy some and do your own test. What better way to win an argument than that, right?

Thank you Travis!  And like I told them it has a 100% money back guarantee; not a 30-day, nor 60-day, but an eight tank guarantee.  GFG's money guarantee is like no other in our industry.

"Always a colorful topic when you fellas are talking.

Mlm proof...hmm

1. Try to go easy on these products you guys have so much fun picking on, because even mainstream products rely on hype for good sales. I know you may not want to hear it, and I certainly don't, but a product only has to function in order to be considered effective. A diet pill can help you lose 1 pound a month, and that is pretty worthless overall, but so long as it can do it, it can be hyped and sold.That constitutes MLM proof I think.

2. Both products and people are all very different. I've seen you guys arguing to the bloody end over gas pills, and I can understand to some extent, but you realize that without an engineering degree, or even an automotive degree you can't possibly determine whether a product really works without trying it. If gas tablets so much as save an extra gallon, no matter how shabby that may be, it works. That's just how business works. In fact its kind of like those psychic shows where some weirdo is a conversation with you dead uncle Benny. Just one out of three guesses and a sense of credibility develops.

3. Real proof according to you guys should be some popular mechanics article explaining why something works or doesn't, but no one is really looking at this stuff. Its not big enough a deal, you know? You would have to invest the money yourself into an independent study that meets every possible piece of criteria before being universally accepted, or you could just have a celebrity endorse it! That would probably be more effective, at least here in the states.

4. It all comes down to you. If you squawk loud enough to complain or fight to the bloody death in your struggle to prove it doesn't work. Save some money and by enough of it to prove your point. You care enough to argue over the Internet, then buy some and do your own test. What better way to win an argument than that, right?"

Travis my friend, you continue to grind my gears with your outlook that to you; must seem so fundamental. You have the great civilization sickness, wanna know what that is? lol.. That's when things have been run a certain way for so long, no matter how insane, hypocritical, ineffective, unfair, or morally wrong; that you are choosing to continue to allow it to evolve in a negative direction instead of taking action and trying to make CHANGE man! I mean that all very respectfully by the way. Your 4 examples bug me, and I'll explain why. I definitely agree with you about your comparison between mainstream hype and mlm hype, as well as the dynamics of a products effectiveness, you are right beyond right. That STILL does not make "it" right. You are supposed to tell the truth in court, why the hell not during advertising? You share that "protect the current status at all costs" mentality. Its something that prevents change on pretty much every aspect of life.

You can't possibly be so afraid of things getting worse before they get better that you would prefer they stay the same just to avoid a temporary dip..can you? I don't want to get all political on you, but this reminds me of politics and everyone's favorite laugh bag, Ron Paul. The guy is suggesting some things that are absolutely unheard of. Virtually the only candidate that not only tells the truth, but scares the hell out of the left AND the right. The country is in such a dire position that he seems to be the only guy being honest about how bad the wound is, and has container of alcohol he's willing to poor and you KNOW its gonna hurt for a long time. The end result will be a healed wound, while all the other candidates are offering the same stale crap for the next generations, and possibly a gangrenes, severed limb.

Business and marketing is just like this, I'd go as far to say as its gross, and obnoxious. The fact that we have schools to teach people how to manipulate the consumer is really one of those things I'd imagine an evolved race would look back on and cringe, like slavery.

On one hand Travis, you're openly admitting that everything is BS, but that its what we eat and survive on, instead of suggesting a change in diet, and a change in how we harvest our food. Maybe I shouldn't even be at a network marketing forum with the way I see this, but I'd love a little honesty for a change. I'd rather see the economy take a massive dive, even if I'm part of the low, if it means we change for the better in the long run. There is a strange sadness to your post, like a silent cynicism underneath it that doesn't like the way things are run, but then you kind of just accept it and suggest we get what we can out of it. Maybe it comes with being older or something I don't know, I only know I disagree.

Remember the old phrase "figures don't lie but liars figure"?  That's far too often my opinion of 'proof'. Companies lie, studies lie, and before you put something in your body or your vehicle that could cause problems worth tens of thousands of dollars, you at least want proof it's SAFE.

Beyond that, I'm a firm believer in the Try It method.  I don't care if YOU had success with a weight loss product, or a fuel saving product - I want to try it myself!

I know you didn't hijack this bus and take it on a Ron Paul ride did ya Rick? haha. I like Ron Paul, I don't really agree with his ideas but its come down to choosing anything different at this point. I feel like we have had the same leaders for the last 50 years and I don't even care how extreme it is, its time to do something different, rock the dang boat.

Proof of a product is all about people. We humans are more emotional than logical, and showing people how well something works can be a pretty powerful heart string. In my case I deal with nutrition, and I'll tell yall nothing makes a person happier than hope. I myself had a major weight problem until I got involved. I show new folks photos of me before and after, and if they have a weight problem to, almost every single one of them gives it an American try. Its a beautul thing, and it makes me feel good.

Funny that most of the people I meet that are trying to lose weight and get healthier are women, they always listen very intently, are usually more open-minded and are more prone to being my friend whether they stick with the program or not. In my case, I am the best proof I have. Most people aren't all about that science stuff like you guys are, demanding studies and figures, then when you get them you attack the sources which I can understand; unfortunately, the best source of information is to try it yourself. What I don't get is how much time yall are willing to argue about it online, why not just fork over some green and try it? Is it a pride thing incase it don't work?

The proof is in the pudding.

Jacob, I wish they'd listen to you.  Just TRY it.  If you live in the Los Angeles Area in California, I will give you a free EnviroTabs TDK to try; but I refuse to ship out free samples.  That's the best I can do.  When I see a product claiming to do something I see useful, I buy it and give it a try.  If you can't spend up to $29.95 + s&h to try something that will save you more than the cost of the product, then you have bigger economic problems and shouldn't be wasting your time writing reviews on the legitimacy of products.

Regards,

Angel

EPA Registration + Magnuson-Moss Warranty act of 1978 = 100% SAFE for your vehicle.

Try it and tell me what you think.

Jon, thanks a million for that post, you really gave me a pretty good dose of insight as well as motivation to do some thinking about what I can fit into my current situation. Oh and that hundred dollar bill business card thing; priceless lol. Seems like such a (hard to think of) way to get your info in someone's hand and yet its brilliantly simple. Out of nosy curiosity, did you by chance take business in college? I have always been of the mind that successfully running a business today required two things at the very least: A number efficient mind, and knowledge of economics. So business classes seemed like they were imperative. I was listening to the radio a few weeks ago and the founder of PayPal was on saying everyone should drop out of business school and get out in the field where the real experience is.

It occurred to me why I felt he was correct, because it seems like successfully running your own business involves a number of dynamics, all related to change. The economy is constantly changing, the market is forever changing, the population is always growing, people's interest is always changing. It goes on and on and on and leads me to believe that no set education is much help in an area where the more you learn about the present (which is always changing incidentally), and the faster you can adapt, the better your odds of survival. I do think some type of formal education would help, maybe economics, public speaking, and the obvious necessities of language and math, but it seems that advanced business courses are becoming increasingly criticized. 

Anyway, sorry to ramble, but it struck me as a very interesting thing to consider that I hadn't been privy to before, and I guess I'm wondering if there is anyone here whom has, or is completing a business degree, if they feel it has done much to help, or if they could have accomplished the same thing without it?

No business here.

I'm a Civil engineer.  Any marketing ideas I use I openly admit they come from watching others in the industry. Anything else is school of hard knocks.